AI SEO: How Local Businesses Get Found on ChatGPT and Gemini

If your website isn't structured in a way that answers the people living near your service area for the problem you want to solve, you're not going to get those people. >> Okay, let's switch to the future. Where do we think it's going? I mean, we're seeing the models getting more advanced. >> The image generated onepage websites where you just keep on like scrolling instead of having the separate pages. Those inherently rank less tomorrow search is AI assisted. And if your website doesn't reflect that, it's you're going to get swamped by people's websites that do. >> AI, is it hype or help? Good day and welcome to the show. I'm your host Pete Cooper and our topic is AI hype or help.

Today's guest is Theresa Grittner. She has developed an indexing tool with her company Tag Makes which ranks websites against their competition. And what business owner doesn't want to know how they're ranking against their competition? Where their customers are looking and where are they looking these days? It's on the LLMs like Chat GPT. So, we're going to go deep into this and find out what businesses can do to rank better against their competition. Let's get into it. >> Welcome back, Theresa. How have you been? >> Good. How are you? >> Yeah, good. Well, thanks for coming back on the show for a a second round. Um, we were just talking about how long ago it was.

Both our businesses have moved on and AI is moving so fast. So I think in a few short months there can be new things for both our businesses and also what's happening in AI. So I think it's appropriate to have you back on. So what's what's changed for you in the last few months? Anything? >> Oh my gosh. So um we I am now on version three of the index. Um with the models coming out as quickly as they are, it's changing their selectiveness towards business choosing. >> So, it's really giving on the research side really specific how to fix it and how to make your business the one that AI recommends.

And on the small business side, it's super complicated because all of a sudden >> all of a sudden there's a lot of answers and a lot of information that wasn't there three months ago. >> Yeah. I want to get into some of that. So, if anyone's new to you, um just go over what your business is and the index. >> Yeah. So, my name is Teresa. I live in Charleston, South Carolina, and I own TAG Makes and I specialize in AI optimization for small businesses. And with that, I built the first local recommendation leaderboard. So you can search by industry and what businesses are actually being recommended by AI and then it gives a full detailed report as to why and a client persona.

So who AI actually sends to you and a uh like a why they did it that way and then you kind of re reverse engineer that and get the clients that you want to do the business that you want. >> Right. It sounds like every small business would want that. But I always like to think of a plumber as an example. And um in my area, let's say I'm I'm in Bethlehem, PA. People don't know where I'm from or where I'm living. There's a few plumbers around here. Um maybe they compete for business. Maybe they got too much business. I don't know. It's always seems to be very hard to get a plumber, but uh and they seem to be very expensive. But let's just say they do want to grow their business.

Um what would how would they interact with you and what would they expect in terms of results? So the index itself is just an unbiased scoring system. So you can see where you are now and then anybody any web person can take that information and build that into their web person. So it doesn't have to just be me. Um I just happen to be specialized in it. Like that's the thing that I do. Um, which is really really helpful for small business owners because you know they always have a friend that has done their website or they've done their website. So, it gives them the option like I want I don't want anybody to feel like they're trapped into a product.

I want them to able to do their own thing. >> Uh, because that's what's made them successful anyway. >> So, let's call it ABC Plumbing or something like that. He's got a website abcplumbing. Com. Does he drop that into your index just cut and paste or is there some extra information that they need? Is there other socials that need to go in? How do they how do they interact with your indexing? >> So right now they just put their URL in and then choose the industry. And we use a generic query set. And one of the version three very cool things is now it's asking each AI three different ways.

So like for plumbing it' be like what plumber is the best near me, what plumber specializes in a house near me or location based plus industry based. So each AI get gets asked three times. So we can really see consistently across all models is that the is the industry being recognized correctly for each model and with that if it's not why not and how to fix it. >> And so I thought it was really important to start expanding the query base and we're not query trackers. It's not a percentage or a share of voice.

It's just research and it's oh okay so AI can't tell that I do exterior plumbing at XYZ location but that's what I want to specialize in so I then you can ask the AI that's located on there like how do I get this how do I switch this to get the clients that I want to do the jobs that I want instead of like oh now you're just fixing sinks say the guy doesn't like sinks you know so >> so um would would this when you say different models because there's different models within Anthropic Suite. There's different models within um Open AI and and Microsoft and so on. So there are different models across different companies, but there's also models within each company.

When you say across different models, are you talking different companies or how do you select a model when you said three different ones? So I interestingly enough did a whole bunch of research to see is the model being used most often within that industry. So Anthropic or Claude. Um they have a whole bunch of different selections now just available and I tested the answers and then the variances within the answers based on each model. So Sonnet would answer 80% of the time saying go ABC plumbing where Opus was like no I don't think ABC plumbing is the right answer. >> And so it's really neat to kind of see how much AI has learned I guess is the best way to put it.

>> Um >> and how more in depth >> the models within the model. So, um, with chat GPT was a big one is we use the one that comes for free. Um, so anybody that's using chat GPT, our model matches that. So, they're going to get the same a consumer would, >> right? Okay. So, you want to match the model that's most likely used for searching for ABC Plumbing, right? >> Exactly. Because I tested it like, can I use the cheap model in all seriousness cuz API costs are insane. Um, and it failed so often and it was just based wrong on like the consumer recommendations and things that just didn't catch on the website because it was having trouble putting the context together.

Whereas the models that people are actively using were answering completely differently because they could read better. They could infer better. So it was it's uh that was a kind of a fun little bit >> counterintuitive. I would have thought that the later, more expensive models would do a better job, but it sounds like it's the other way around. >> Oh, no. They they do a better job inferring. So, absolutely. And the cheap models just don't infer at all.

So, if it's not spelled out very easily and like plain and easy for the robot to read, then they're not going to get recommended, which is a whole another thing is like how can it be something that a human can read and AI can read and it matches your voice and it's going to grab the right clients. So, it just adds a new layer of depth to any type of search optimization, >> including AI. Yeah. So in your indexing you're working between chat GPT uh Claude and another one is that right? >> Uh Chat GPT Claude Perplexity and Gemini. >> Mhm. >> And Gemini is is Google's AI. >> So as a very cool byproduct of doing any AI optimization working with Gemini, your Google rankings go up as well. >> Oh.

>> Yeah. >> Google's going to AI too. So, um, by the end of 2026, I think was their their goal is to be all AI searchbased. >> I again, I don't know if it's going to happen, but might as well plan for it anyway. And it helps gain clarity on small businesses at the same time. So, all around it's not it's a great investment for a small business to get in now. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Because one of the the other things that AI checks is how long have they been doing this? How long have I been able to read their site? Like what's the historical backing on it. The more information, the less hallucinizations they get.

So just being really crisp and clear and being able to give that to the robots in a way they can read is really that's what the index provides is the research behind that and not an opinion, not a percentage and it's not testing something every single day. >> So it gives a actionable movement for the small business owner. >> Yeah. So that's that's the key point here. Okay. Okay. So, he's done he's he's put ABC Plumbing in. Your tool has worked across those four um companies, but you've you've selected the models that are relevant. Um and you're using those as the reference. And then you make a bunch of you make a ranking, right? An indexing.

You say how well they're comparing to competition, I guess. >> Yep. >> And then you can make some recommendations. Is that right? >> Yep. And that and it all happens under two minutes because AI is amazing. So, and then you can get the full report, all of it, like you get the base level report, and if you really want the rest of it, it's like $47 and it gives you the steps to do it, the order to do it in, and it's a direct answer from each AI. So, it's not something that we've made up, and it it's it's proven that it works. >> Yeah. So, and that's really why the entire index exists is I wanted to prove that the AI optimization is like a real thing that we need to do. >> Yes.

>> So, that's that's where it is. And it's all as unbiased from the doer side, from my side of things as it can possibly be. That's really been the the cool thing about all of it is like I have two different brains. Like the sassy Teresa like, "Yeah, I can do it. " And then uh the index is just the encyclopedia like here you go this is why I can do it. >> Yeah. I was going to say yeah the two brain there's a book about the two brains where your stomach is the second brain but that's not what you're talking about. >> I mean that too. >> Yeah. Well all right. So one thing we sort of mentioned I want to dig into it a little bit more. The plumber in ABC plumbing he might want to pick a niche.

Um, is there some way to help him pick a niche or does he just have to figure that out for himself? Um, like you talked about like focusing on, you know, doing, I don't know, sink repairs. >> I want to just do sink repairs, right? >> Um, do you help him with picking the niche or do they need to come pre-armed with that? >> So, I can help and I love talking to small business owners. So, this actually like works well cuz I haven't met one that just dislikes their entire business. So, it's I love being able to have a conversation with people that are just really wildly passionate about what they do and like I built this cuz my grandpa fixed my sink once. I'm like, "Oh, tell me more.

This is so cool. " >> Um, so I haven't met a small business owner that doesn't come pre-armed with their ideal client. >> Okay. >> Um, that's great. But I do I definitely go with, okay, so there are 9, 000 sink fixers. Are you sure that's the niche that you want that's going to make you the income that you want? So again, it's a lot of like reverse engineer interviewing of like where do you want to be tomorrow? And what do you ultimately how much do you want to work? What do you what do you want to be doing? Do you want to sell it? Like what is your tomorrow goal?

Because that's again one of the gifts of working with AI is having that ability to think about your tomorrow because it's taking your care of your today things. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So that's really cool because then we can build to what do we want to do next instead of just oh gosh I hope I can eat this month. >> Yeah. Right. >> Okay. So so back to how someone would interact. What's their first touch point for for you? Are you advertising the index? Um, they respond to ads. Is it networking? How do you What's that first touch point they would have with you? >> That is a great question. And honestly, I'm just putting it up on LinkedIn and social media and not very well to be honest with you.

>> Really >> at all. I the summer mom life balance was a little it wasn't a balance. It was a swinging pendulum of like I'm going to be mom for a while and then I'll work on business. So, it I didn't didn't like hit it as hard as I in my head I was going to. Um, but I had a really good summer with my daughter. So, that's >> good. >> Yeah. >> So, again, it's that pendulum. And so, now we're going to jump back into it and really go for it. And it will be uh more networking more than anything and doing more public speaking at small business events. I've been doing light networking throughout the summer and working with just the Charleston side of it.

Right now I have uh seven six seven live indexes for seven different locations and uh 74 different ones started for like smaller single runoff locations. So I've got like 70 I don't know 80 something locations on the index. >> Oh interesting. So it has to be location specific your index. It does because ABC Plumbing near you absolutely would get recommended near me. They don't know who ABC Plumbing is. Why would they send a plumber from you to me? >> So that's why it is its location and industry separated so that everybody can kind of see like, oh, so the marketing agencies in Charleston, which one is going to be recommended? For the plumbers or the HVAC in Charleston or up there in Bedford.

>> So, just to get a sense of scale, you got 70 locations. If you were to do the whole of the United States, how many locations would that be? >> Oh my gosh, I don't know. A lot. >> I built it tens of thousands. I built it so it's self-growing.

And what's one of the cool things about the index is if you know if you're like I want to run all of my clients through this >> immediately as soon as there's a hundred it it seeds that live so that all of your clients can then see okay against your clients and their competitors you can see live as that's building where do we stand and then find out how do we get to the number one spot how do we get to that AI recommendation and sales immediately follow that just inherently. So that's that's where the tomorrow of the index is. It is self-growing. It is ready to start picking up new new areas right away and it'll be live and get filled up real real quick.

And so now it's just me telling people like everywhere I go, hey, what type of business do you own and can I run 10 of your closest competitors? And it's super super fun because I get to meet a lot of people. >> Yeah, that sounds good. So in Charleston, I don't know how big the Charleston town is, but that would be one location, right? One city, I guess, >> if we just use cities. And so a plumber might service the whole of Charle Town, right? Because he can get to all of Is that right? Or do they even is it even more refined than that? >> Yeah, Charleston. It is more refined right now because I am here. So I can go like, oh, plumbers in John's Island, plumbers in West Ashley.

To like the little suburbs of Charleston and it's big enough that that is relevant. >> All right. So, as you develop the index, it becomes more localized. And so, I think of it in terms of the plumbers's practicality. He lives in Bethlehem. >> There's maybe three or 400, 000 people here. That might be big enough for him just to do most of his work in Bethleam, but then he might also go over to Eastern and to Allentown, which are sister cities close by, and service the whole of the Lehigh Valley. Um, I could imagine there's dozens of plumbers that do the whole of the Lehigh Valley. Um, but he might want to just be more focused into Beth because it's closer to his home. >> Exactly.

And that's that's the information that I grab and then give back to small business owners is like this is where AI thinks you go right now >> is that where you want to go. Like do you want to do everybody for everything? And that's why it's it's the big city and then the tiny little suburbs and then the outskirts of them. And so like Nashville's got a couple of small outskirts added. Atlanta um I think I have Manhattan which is interesting. So I'll I'll be adding more. And as I've been doing the version changes, I've just been rerunning all of the businesses I already have in there.

So that it's just it's been a lot of rerunning and like the math isn't mathing and then the math maths again and then I get it all figured out. So it's >> Yeah, it sounds like you've got like a really fairly easy in for somebody, right? It's not an expensive thing. I think they most people would recognize that they got competition and they want if they do anything online they're going to invest in the time to to use your product and then pay the the for the full report. Um is that the complete element of your business model or do you do other things beyond that? >> That's it. And right now um as the index is gaining traction and popularity I'm still the doer.

Like I still definitely do client websites and build their products out. And it's very handy because I have the inside access to the index. So I just okay, where are we at now? How do we do this? And then I can fix everything and I I keep a really small client base so that I can one knock everything out really fast and I can still keep focused on the research and the growing the index side of things. M >> so everything just kind of builds for it's like a continuing little loop of like help Teresa get clients and that's where the index being a unbiased source of information is really important cuz I don't want someone to mistake that as a lead generation machine for me.

Um I want them to know that like no this is legitimate research. I mess up a lot and then I tell you that I mess up and then I fix it and then this is the answer. And I've been publishing things as they come out on real research pages because I really think it's important to know where AI started with recommendation and where it's going to go tomorrow and it'll really be >> super useful for small businesses. >> Yeah. Right. So I I did some invest funny enough we're talking about plumbing. Well, I guess I kind of coached this along because I I actually was looking at a plumbing business um a couple of weeks back. His website seemed to be a little outdated.

It even was dated a few years old and wasn't structured very well. Um it looked like it was out of the 1990s. Uh and what what what advice would I give someone like that? He's actually advertising. I won't tell you the name, but he's advertising on a huge billboard beside the highway, right? He's got his little logo and everything there like he's got um he's really serious about that and we even got to the point of calling to see so we could talk to him about it and he had somebody there who was taking the calls. Um what advice would you give someone like that? >> So it would start off with like okay so you know you're advertising and you're just getting views on the billboard.

There's no way to directly correlate how much business you're getting from the views on the billboard. You can infer it, but and you can ask, but if somebody doesn't answer, that's skewing your results, >> right? >> And that is essentially what AI is, is it's the billboards, but instead of people driving, it's people's conversations. So, if your website isn't structured in a way that answers the people living near your service area for the problem you want to solve, you're not going to get those people. No matter how many billboards you put up, the the tomorrow search is AI assisted. And if your website doesn't reflect that, it's you're going to get swamped by people's websites that do.

>> Yeah. >> It doesn't matter like the word of mouth. And that's been like a big kind of an interesting conversation that I've been having in my own head about it. Like people invest in billboards and car wraps, but when I call and tell them like, "Hey, your website is literally invisible in this industry, in this area. " They're like, "Oh, no. It's fine. I we don't really care about the website. " And I'm like, "What do you need to do? " >> Right. >> That's right. And I'm glad you brought that in because that's very similar experience to what I'm seeing is that there's almost a diminished uh sense that the website is adding any value.

Um and I can sort of understand this is my where my thinking goes and tell me if you think I'm right. Back in the day, we built websites, right? Back in the turn of the century, websites were there and the search engines would rank them and if you had a good website, you'd be up the top. But of course, that became hard harder and harder to do because advertisers came in and then we had these things called uh aggregators >> like Angie's an example, right? They're now dominating that space.

If you want to that they're investing very heavily in their position in in the Google search and you your website gets pushed further and further down and they're now getting perhaps more b business through these aggregators like Angie than they were ever getting from well from their website at least more recently that that changed things right but I see this changing again and this is I think where you have such an important role here is to bring back their website what do you think about that how does does how do the aggregators fit into this?

>> So, interestingly enough, if the aggregators are set up to be AI optimized, it will end up being a source of truth, a reference point for small businesses. So, it is something you can still play with. Most of them, like Angie's, for example, um haven't updated enough for the AI to be able to grab the information and use it accurately. So, right now it's probably irrelevant to be on Angie's list. I don't know. I haven't researched into it. And now, thanks, Pete. I have another research project. >> You're welcome. >> But, um, I know that I'm I'm just building my database with the the index. It pulls all of those businesses already. It has them all listed on a Google search.

So even that like, oh, they're listed eighth out of 150, that shows a hierarchy and it shows history and it builds that business's case essentially for free in the land of AI recommendations because it's just added to a legitimate ranking site. >> Mhm. >> So it's it's cool. It's a neat little word puzzle of data. >> Yeah, it is. Um, so back to the sort of plumbing thing. I got a plumber through uh one of those aggregating websites and the guy came. It seemed to be the only way I could get somebody. I mean, I I would prefer to have just done it the oldfashioned way, calling around, but I didn't seem to be getting anywhere.

People weren't responding to uh the calls that I was making or I would have to fill in multiple um forms to get someone's attention from their website and then maybe they would contact me and maybe they won't. So then I ended up defaulting over to the aggregator um because they they just had a a slicker process. But then I had to answer all their questions anyway. I don't like that. I don't know whether it's just me. I don't really like the amount of work I have to do and then speculating or prospecting just to get a vendor. And this is where I think the NLMs are so powerful. I it meets me where I want to be. Like I can have a conversation with literally with my voice.

I want a plumber that can do my sink this week cuz it's leaking. Um can you recommend somebody? I'm in Bethlehem. Maybe it'll ask me a question or two and then it's going to recommend specifically off off off of my uh off of my chat. It really cuts the work down. Um >> I guess the the question I wanted to ask was is it still going to go back to Angie or go back to an aggregator, right? Or is it going to take me directly to the website and then do I still have to go back and fill in all that stuff? How does it change the customer experience is where I'm going with this? Well, hopefully it'll take you to the website.

I'm hoping that as more small businesses understand the importance of correct website setup. And this is where it really ties into the automation side from you is like being able to like, all right, you had trouble getting through all of that extra stuff. Well, how can you get all of those extra steps out of the way before you send in an inquiry to a plumber? Um, and that's an unfortunate side effect of the small businesses popping into the AI agents and everything before they really knew what it was. And I think they they added unnecessary steps to save them unnecessary steps, but it looks cool. So, like, let's do it.

Um, but yes, in the near future, I really feel like AI is not only going to recommend, but it's going to fill out those forms for you and give you a like, would you like me to send an email? Like, yeah, absolutely. Send an email. Like, set this up. Like, come on out. Like, oh, I looked at your calendar. You're available. They're coming at noon on Tuesday. >> Yeah. >> Um, that's that's where I feel like all of the AIs are headed because I mean, they already do all of that. It's wild where it's like I read the email. I had my AI read read the email from you and I'm like, "All right, make sure everything is answered correctly and in my voice and they're like, "Yep.

" And I'm like, "Cool, send it. " >> Interesting. I think Yeah, you just touched on something >> really important is just how much we are starting to we're trading off doing the work with the convenience, aren't we? We're really saying, look, I don't want to go two levels deep looking at different websites for plumbers all over town, which might take me half an hour and then filling out various forms. Um, I can literally do it in two or three minutes from my phone with my voice and have what the [clears throat] AI recommends is the best choice for me. And all of the decisions down there are invisible to me, right? I don't really know why it did that, do I?

I just would say, well, I guess I could ask it. What criteria did you use? But most of the time, we don't. We just, okay, get the plumber in. Let's do it. >> And that's that's where I come in is I do ask. I'm like, well, why did you pick that? Why what part of this? What specific thing? And it's so cool because with LLMs being as advanced as they are now, grabbing that personalization side of things and really like getting all of that set up beforehand and having it pull all of your history, it's wild like how many different things are added into the recommendation layers for for homeowners and like for any industry. >> Yeah.

And so that's why the index is set up as base level as possible and why we use cold API calls. So there's no history at all. Like I just this is just straight up is because it really gives you a what does AI see about your business? Who do they recommend without any history or personalization? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're going to have to do this for our business, aren't you? >> Absolutely. I think I feel like you're already on there. I'm pretty sure we ran yours last time, which would be >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's really cool what you're doing. Um, so is this applicable outside of the US? Is this a global phenomenon that we're seeing there? >> Yes.

Um, actually I I got a call from someone in Australia to Toua. Is that right? Did I say that? >> Yeah. >> Very excited. I'm like, wait, I know too. Um, and it's it's the same level. It's just based a little differently. So now I'm like, "All right, let's start learning international in like recommendation layers. " But it's >> essentially the same stuff everywhere. It's just what they pull based on cultural things that different areas feel like are more important. >> Yeah. Cool. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, they're still using the same >> Yeah. Same models. Yeah. >> So, okay, let's switch to the future. Where do we think it's going? I mean, we're seeing the models getting more advanced.

I mean, every week I'm seeing new news. I think the latest thing that I got stuck into was watermarking of text and so on. And that that was an interesting segue for us because if we're getting watermarked text and people are creating content which has a watermark in it, is that going to have an bearing on indexing? Is that going to have a bearing on whether things rank? So my theory is no. And this is why like we are we already know all of us already know when we're reading any post on any social media if it's written by AI or not >> and the person hasn't put any work into it. You know like there's oh write me a post for Tuesday.

Um and if it is written by AI in all seriousness social media and etc it's such a fastm moving world for our brains. Is it going to stick with somebody like oh this was written by Claude? Like, "No, I don't think it is. I think they're going to be like, "Oh, Cloud wrote mine, too. " Okay. Like, I see that you're using time-saving technology. We all like that about you, >> you know? Okay. >> Yeah. >> That being said, I've already seen two ads for free AI watermark removal systems and like it's just an extra thing, an extra step that to show that we're not using AI. Like, we all know those posters are AI. It's fine. Go.

Now you're just going to have a chat GBT logo on it to prove it like >> right like do we care? Like like I don't think it's going to change anything. And if Claude builds a website for a small business and then puts on there like this website was proudly built by Claude again, is that any different than having this website runs on GoDaddy AIO or the Wix AI thing? So, >> yep.

>> I don't see it changing much except hopefully it'll be easier to track the percentage of use of AI in certain situations like website building or data grabbing or you know writing an email things like that is like how much are we really using this and are we able to do it without should the worst happen and we don't have AI anymore because they got too wild. So you don't think that um as we as watermarking comes in that we're the websites that use AI generated content are going to get downranked? You don't think that's a thing? >> I don't think so at all.

And frequently when AI is asked correctly to build a website and keep it, you know, so it stays high in the rankings, it is read so quickly by other AIs that it's still going to be above the other ones. It's still going to be like, "Oh, well, I still get the point across. It just said that Claude made it or it said that Chad Chibt made it instead of the human that copy and pasted it into there. " M >> and yes, the image generated onepage websites where you just keep on like scrolling instead of having the separate pages, those inherently rank less because the AI has to then also scroll to the other topics instead of switch the pages. That's honestly the only reason.

>> Yeah, it's just the cost of it's the cost of um of them scrolling the page. Yeah. The same thing with uh image and video content doesn't convert as well as text because it's very cheap for it to read text. >> So it tends to get read more. And >> so you made a statement about it's reading the the websites very quickly. Is there a a time from when someone posts something to the AI can pick it up? >> Um it varies by AI model. So Gemini usually takes about a week after you reindex the site. If you retell Google that there's a change on there, takes anywhere from 24 hours to a week. Um, Perplexity is 24 hours to 3 or 4 days. Perplexity is usually the fastest.

Um, chatbt and Claude will take one to two weeks before it's reliably drawing on that information. So, yeah, it's it's way faster than I'm going to do your SEO work and in 6 months you'll see a change in your rankings in Google. And since Google is going all AI anyway, it's yes, we SEO is still wildly important to support the client that you want. Like it's this is now a supporting role and not a primary role is all it is. >> Okay. You use the term SEO. Are we are we going to drop that term and go with AEO or something else? Do you think? >> Oh my gosh. I don't know. There's so many acronyms I genuinely lose count. Um, I I think it's just going to have to stay with SEO.

>> And then as a subcategory, I I want to make a OO like wildly popular just because I use it a lot. >> But I know that AI, SEO, and AEO, and GEO are all separate terms, and everybody has the tiny little definition difference. And that's another kind of frustrating thing about a new industry is everybody's rushing to be the definer of a category. >> Yeah. >> And so it's like okay well this guy said that your stuff isn't as good as his stuff. Why do we want to choose your stuff? And it's I don't know like you get to that you're it's your choice. >> This is what I think answer that >> this is for our audience. So SEO was the old term now search engine optimization.

So a search engine like Google was you know that was u search engine optimization then we had we said AEO so that's AI engine optimization that's how I what's what's GEO what was that one >> uh generative engine optimization y >> yeah okay that's LLM specifically I guess >> yeah and that one's uh LLM plus user history essentially so you can generate the answers. And then there's LLM SEO and that's obviously the same. Uh so, yep, we're just kind of going with it. I just I every time I get a new acronym, I just throw it up on the website. I'm like, "Okay, this I guess this is what this means today. " Like, >> yeah. All right.

So >> the other way that I think people um judge a a a plumber again a plumber service come back to that is with um their ratings right their feedback from customers which can be on their website or through an aggregator or something like Yelp or other things I guess even on Facebook I mean there's a whole lot of other breadcrumbs around the the quality of their service is AI looking at all those as well. >> It is um and the index specifically is only pulling things associated with that URL >> and Google business profile because that is tied into the Gemini AI, >> right?

>> Um and we just started >> version three just started tracking the Google business profile information as well so that I can see like how much does that change a recommendation level or not. Um, but yes, it does pull the entire ecosystem as part of the recommendation level. As Meta evolves, I'm also going to figure out how to add that into the recommendation layer. But Meta is evolving so quickly that I haven't even tried yet. I'm like, I'm going to let it settle for a second and then add that because now Google can also index your Instagram and your Facebook and your I think your Twitter and your LinkedIn. It's it got a little You can do all your socials on Google as well.

So you can see how many people actually click on your profile for Instagram and Facebook and etc. So meta is Facebook and Instagram's AI. >> Yep. >> And it's just integrating itself into search history and reasons to have small businesses sign up for them as well. >> Yeah. >> So what is Meta doing in this space? We talked about Google and I think if anyone's not seen what's happening, I don't know anyone that doesn't use Google, but if they don't, it used to be that it was just the search bar. You type your request in and it would give you a whole load of websites to go and look at.

Now it's actually putting some text in there and some other things which a little bit like what happens in chat GPT gives you that little rendition of this is what I think is the answer to your question and then there's all the search stuff below that the sponsored ads and then the organic ads. [gasps] How's how's it changing for Meta? Because I obviously hasn't looked into Meta at all. And and Meta, by the way, has this llama as this open-source >> um model which they've been promoting for few years now, but they're not doing the same sort of thing that Google is. At least I don't know what are they doing. >> Oh my gosh.

So, to the best of my knowledge, they're trying to specialize as well into niche um very specific searches and to draw people into that conversation, >> right? I think it's a data grab personally. I don't again this is might be a tin foil hat situation like um I think it's they're trying to get people more reliant on their information and be able to specialize ads and really target their client individual clients. >> I don't know. Uh, I don't work there, >> but it seems like it is. Uh, when you're asking like very specific questions of like user intent and location and budget and etc.

It's like, oh, how can we target this person who was just looking for a hair stylist under $50, like near Charleston that has black shoes, you know? So, >> but that's what I think they're building towards is hyper specific ads and really really being able to charge a boatload of money to small businesses to get them the clients. >> Yeah. Right. Right. I don't know whether you know have any comments about LinkedIn, how that might be changing. >> Oh my gosh, I have no idea. I am so far removed from that just because it's not one of the primary search results. I know that it's small businesses are pulled from there, especially like founder businesses like you, you and I.

A lot of our um information is pulled from our LinkedIn profile when people look. Um past that, I don't know how their AI game is. Uh they're they're pretty big in that like don't let AIS scroll and post autonomously on there. So, you do have to like copy and paste and be aware of things and actually do it yourself. Same with Reddit. Reddit is huge on the the recommendation game for every AI model. Um, but again, they have it locked down pretty significantly. So, you can't just send an agent on it. You have to there has to be a human in the works on it as well, >> right? Because hypothetically, you could just send an agent to to create thousands and thousands of likes, right?

Or >> Y and just keep on dumping out information about your business and then by default if you've got 9, 000 posts and business B has three, you're going to get mentioned more. >> Yeah. Right. But they got they were already ahead ahead of that um that trick, I suppose. >> Yeah, they have so far. And again, like everything's everything's happening so quickly. I don't know how long that's going to last, but as of right now, it's still pretty pretty tricky. There's a lot of extra steps involved in getting into those two separate platforms. >> Yeah. Well, it is happening fast, but it's also, I guess, where the opportunity is, isn't it, now for, I guess, businesses like yours and mine.

Um, trying to help smaller businesses with with the AI challenges. I mean, a lot of businesses just find it just too complex. They don't know how to keep up. They need people that can take on that challenge and that's you're taking on a piece of the pie. I think a really important piece. >> That's that was the entire dream of it is I realized so like for cheese we're switching from plumbers to cheeseburgers. So like if you put in like um where's the best cheeseburger near me? McDonald's has a bazillion dollars they can dump into advertising and flooding AI with like answer best cheeseburger question, >> right? >> I I want to be the answer for a best cheeseburger.

And like you may love McDonald's, so don't take this personally, but um like I want to hear from the local businesses and I I want to make sure that they're not getting drowned out by the bazillion dollars that large corporations are going to now put into AI advertising and AI optimizing. So keeping it something that's it's an actionable e like relatively easy thing to do is really important to me so that the small businesses continue to be recommended and like people still go to them >> not today but in the next three or four years as AI is taking that over like I don't want to be surrounded by b billboards screaming large corporation companies like no this is where the cheeseburger is.

I want to find the hole in the wall cheeseburger place that's been there for hundred years and still be able to go and eat there. >> Yeah. Right. That's that's really interesting. Maybe this is a shift in the right direction because if we can become more local, geographically local um if I put in best cheeseburger and there happens to be a McDonald's close to my my business or another business which I the hole in the wall comparison. I would expect that it would return. These are the best ones that are close to you and it may bring McDonald's and the hole in the wall. That gives me a chance at least. >> Exactly.

And if if the hole in the wall can really hone in on which people do I want to come here, like is it a familyfriendly or is it a like a a date night burger >> and really grab the that um clientele and just scream it into the void that is AI >> and be like, "No, we really want that. " Then they can draw in all the personalization from their previous jet GPT histories and get recommended above McDonald's. Like recommended above the corporations because the corporations Realistically, there's no way they could cram every single niche person into every single answer for the AI to just like take them over.

>> So, this this is the way to kind of target the exact clientele, get the exact thing that they want them to do, and it's giving them it's giving the small business owners the answer so that they can do that. >> So, there's this kind of hyper a hyper niching, I guess. I'm coining a phrase here. >> Yeah.

Where uh you know you can um you can do something very unique and have it picked up because AI as you said just we sort of skipped over that but it's it's not only is it bringing all that information from from the local area about the cheeseburgers but it's also looking at what you are right it's about what type of person you are and then saying well you use that word best Pete likes you know a cheeseburger with a salad on it. Um, with lettuce and all that sort of stuff. >> We know that from all this other stuff and his demographic. He's probably But for you, Pete, the best one is the hole in the wall, right?

Um, that's almost impossible for McDonald's to predict me to that level that it's going to make that match. >> Exactly. And that's that's one of the the things that I kind of pride myself on the index is having a whole bunch of really again really generic queries is so that you know that the the website your company's website your client's website are targeting the people they want to and they're still in the running against the corporations for best cheeseburger. >> Yeah. Like I really really want I really really don't want small businesses to disappear to corporations because we as small business owners can't compete with that level of budget. >> No, that's right.

I I don't know whether we've had this discussion, but I had a look around my local area just in the Lehigh Valley. There's 13, 000 small to medium-sized businesses and from Baltimore to Boston 200, 000. I mean, America is full of small businesses. Um, I do think there's certainly small businesses that are going to be threatened by uh I don't think it's going to be the cheeseburger manufacturers. It's not going to be the the plumbers, but I think a lot of um people that do a lot of online work um that might be routine that might have been complicated to learn but is actually once you've learned it, it's fairly routine.

I'm thinking you know bookkeeping might be one area which is going to be threatened. Um maybe something maybe legal to some extent some maybe some of the heavy lifting of that. I think all of the uh traditional IT companies, people that do website development, software development like we do, we've already seen um some big impact on the software development community uh around this. Uh I think health is not going to be affected on the front end because I think you still need that persontoerson thing. You need you know they need to lay their hands on get your pulse that type of thing.

I don't know like all of the startup things I'm going to to like do the networking again very lightly this summer. Um they've had I don't know three or four have been health related ones is like um check your blood on your phone and have an AI run your analysis before you go to the doctor check you know it's wild the amount of I don't know filtering that AI is doing before they go and see a human but obviously like yes humans still have to be in the mix even with the bookkeeping like AI hallucinates stuff a lot so You'd still have to have somebody just like, can you just double check this?

But yeah, it's going to change so many different industries dayto day and hopefully for the good, like hopefully for the best. >> Yeah. Yeah. Any tips for small businesses then or do you have it scripted? Like this is these are things you've got to be doing. >> So I I have both, but um the biggest thing is to stay away from anything that is like vibes over facts. So going like, you know, just picking something that's completely obscure but doesn't actually tell the point. Oh my gosh, I don't even have an uh example. That was a horrible way to do that.

Um, so if I were to put on there like just straight AI recommendation optimization, the AI can infer that means that I teach people how to do that. But if I were to put on there, I'm going to show the AIS who is going who is the best cheeseburger in this area and then just wordy and rambly and it doesn't actually say real words, then then the AI will skip me and go to the person that does. So, it's just just being wildly clear about what you do, who you do it for, and where you do it. And make sure that that's backed up on the back end of like the schema and the code and everything, the robot stuff. Don't block robot people.

Like a lot of small businesses are getting incomplete advice when it comes to like block the robot the training robots. If you do that, AI can't read their website. So like all websites have a little like you can block training bots and if you do that, AI can't then read to recommend. >> Yes. So, you want to let them read it. And at the beginning, absolutely. That was super awkward because they weren't doing a good job. But now that should it should be a clear, actionable, easy step for small business owners. >> Well, this has been really interesting, Theresa. Um, we're running out of time, but I do want to talk to you after the the podcast, so stick around with me.

Um, do you have any other questions before we wrap up? Um, oh my gosh. I I don't I feel like we talked about everything. It's I noticed that we were like, "Wow man, we're almost out of time again. " Like Pete, you and I can sit and talk about this for a long time. >> Yes, I know. Agree. Um, well, let me ask you one last question. You've asked it before. Maybe it'll change. AI, is it hype or help? >> I'm still going with help. >> Yep. And I still think I I mean, it's just a tool. So, if you can't use a hammer, you know, don't use a hammer to screw in a screw. It's just use the tool for the correct application. >> Yeah. Very well said. All right. Well, thanks, Theresa. This has been great.

Um, again, I think we need to have you back again. This is moving so fast. This is such an interesting topic. It's so applicable to so many people uh with small businesses, and there's plenty of them out there. So, then again, just stick around, Theresa, but thanks very much. >> All right. Thank you. >> Bye. Well, that was great having Theresa back again and we went deeper, even deeper than with you the last time. We went pretty deep last time on search engine optimization or SEO. Well, we also talked about the common terms that have been bandied around now like AEO, so AI engine optimization.

But what's really changed uh in the online space since the advent of the and the emergence and the common use of LLMs? Well, it's really changed the game because customers now are using these tools to make recommendations. And we use a couple of examples like a plumbing organization or what's the best cheeseburger near me? And that's opened up the opportunity for local businesses to have a much stronger and better presence. What used to be the case is the big brands would dominate the advertising. And so if you wanted to think about the best cheeseburger, you're going to be influenced by the big corporations.

But now if you want to talk about the best cheeseburger, it might be the best cheeseburger that's within a mile of your home and that may not be where there's one of the big chains. So there's that opportunity for localization. We call it hyper localization, but also hyper niching. So you might have a ponchant for slightly more healthy options for your cheeseburgers. Um, and therefore you can, you know, you can look for them more easily and find them more easily through these LLMs. And the other important thing is the LM are starting to learn about your personal preferences. You might like to have salad on your cheeseburgers.

Um, you might like to have it out for a date night versus just a a casual driveby and it'll recommend different things based on things about your persona. And that's really given the chance for smaller nichier kind of organizations to be um far more present um and be recommended better. So a really good move forward. But of course you need to be able to make sure that you are working in that niche. That local element needs to become important and so you need a ranking tool for that. Now how do you work with a tool like the index that Theresa has?

Well, you go to the website, you plug in your website, your niche, and some competition, and it'll show you how you rank compared to your nearest competition um in your local area. It'll give you a report on ranking, and then for a small fee, you can get recommendations how to change and improve that. So that can be putting more posts um certain things that can happen in the back uh in the back end that can really help to bring the uh the power of your website up into into the LLMs. Really really interesting stuff. I think this is an emerging field. It's changing very fast and I want to have Theresa back again when there's another change.

I think Theresa is going to be a mainstay for us on the podcast. Really enjoy talking to her. I hope you do too. If you want to know more about Theresa, please follow the links in the description. If you want to know more about Skilin and what we do, please do the same. I hope that helps and thanks for watching.